Need help with old Kinetico water softener
We've had our Kinetico unit since 1986, and I cannot seem to find a model number on it. The unit itself is back in a corner with salt tank right next to it so its hard to examine many surfaces. In any case, the unit has worked great until several months ago when our water started varying between soft and hard. It appears that one tank only is regenerating and the little red marker dial is not going around like it should. I assume there is some problem with the control valve. When I press down the screw to manually recharge, a bit of water leaks out around the screw if that is important. I gather from reading some posts in this forum which I just found, that I have had exceptional service from this unit, but it is time for some repairs. Not very interested in spending $1200 as others have been quoted for a rebuild, and I am quite handy at fixing stuff so would like some guidelines on proceed. There are a few Kinetico valves or partial valves available in the marketplace. Will basically any of them work for me? What kind of questions do I need to ask the sellers? Can anybody recommend a Kinetico dealer here in Southern California who charges a fair price for repairs? I don't recall seeing posts stating $1200 to rebuild a Kinetico softener but even if that is true, $1200 divided by 20 years of reliable service = $60 per year for 24/7 soft water. Not a bad deal IMO. Before you get yourself excited about what it MIGHT cost to rebuild your Kinetico, hit the Yellow Pages or the Kinetico web site and find your local Kinetico dealer. Give them the opportunity to quote exactly the repairs your softener needs and what their parts and labor warranty will be. Then you have a (price) point to start from to make comparisons. As far as buying an orphan Kinetico control valve out in the market (eBay and such) I wouldn't install it on my softener until it was checked for correct operation and the valve would need to be setup for your specific water use and conditions. You'd be paying the Kinetico dealer to do that if you want it done right. Apparently you thought the Kinetico was a good investment in 1986. It's just as good an investment today. Let us know what the Kinetico dealer says and then we might be able to help. Thank you very much for your advice. Isn't the only thing setable in the valve the water usage disk which I could take out of my old valve? BTW there seem to be a number of folks who have successfully repaired their own units on this forum. We have city water, and the unit was working fine several months ago which would imply the adjustable settings are still all fine. At this point it is not worth $100 to just have the system tweaked for absolute maximum performance. If I can't get it going again myself then I will call in the troops. If it comes to that point I will check around all the dealers I can find and get quotes for both a new and rebuilt valve and replacement of the resin. This will give me a good idea of which one to choose. Other than making sure a replacement valve works properly is there anything else to be concerned about if using parts from another valve to fix mine? There are two settings based on the your water conditions and usage, the metering disk and the level of water in the brine tank. If you decide not to rebuild you Kinetico maybe I'll drive over there and pick that worn out and obsolete junker from you, I always wanted a Kinetico Was not considering completely rebuilding the valve, only replacing any worn or broken parts. Have never taken one apart so would have to learn what I would be looking for. I'm sure I can handle replacing o rings, but doubt that is the source of the problem from my research so far. My reference was to others doing the exact same thing. If any broken or worn parts are needed I would also have the option of getting them from a dealer I gather from research. From my research so far it looks as if I can do the resin replacement for under $100 (I have the little tanks). Others on this forum have suggested a $400 fair ballpark figure for complete rebuild with new resin. If that is accurate, and if I can pick up a used or rebuilt valve for $200 or less then I still have the option of calling in the troops if I can't get everything back to normal. You're jumping way too far ahead when you start talking resin replacement and valve rebuild........from your description I'd bet money you have a worn meter turbine.......to determine the model you have, measure from the floor to the top of the control valve......call your local dealer......they will tell you which model you have......then request a new meter gearing stack......not sure about SoCal, but around here, $35 or so......if it was me, I would add a pawl set since you will be in there already.....it sounds to me like the unit is not metering all of the water as it flows into the house.....if the gear on the meter turbine is stripped, it will cause your resin bed to be depleted before the unit is told to regenerate. I agree with the other responses. Sometimes the problem is not related to the softener at all. We have done service on units as you have described and found running toilets, pin-hole leaks and other very slow water usage has caused the softener to regenerate too late. Please check all plumbing for these potential problems. $1200 is pretty expensive for a rebuild, even with a rebed. We rebuild valves for around $200 and that includes new gaskets and all worn parts except for main body parts, which rarely go bad. Just finding another valve may fit on the tanks but the internal gearing may be very different to determine gallons used in service, brining, backwashing as well as rate of flow. Another case may be the quality of your source water has changed slightly. This may be easily adjusted by the owner if data is understood and parts available. Andy Christensen, CWS Originally Posted by jdp38 You're jumping way too far ahead when you start talking resin replacement and valve rebuild........from your description I'd bet money you have a worn meter turbine.......to determine the model you have, measure from the floor to the top of the control valve......call your local dealer......they will tell you which model you have......then request a new meter gearing stack......not sure about SoCal, but around here, $35 or so......if it was me, I would add a pawl set since you will be in there already.....it sounds to me like the unit is not metering all of the water as it flows into the house.....if the gear on the meter turbine is stripped, it will cause your resin bed to be depleted before the unit is told to regenerate. If I take apart the valve should it be obvious what parts need to be replaced? From all the other posts on this forum regarding Kinetico units, I just assumed that after 20 years a resin replacement would be in order while I had it apart. Actually the unit originally had bladders inside the tanks which eventually ruptured. We had to have a factory person come out and remove the bladders and refill both tanks with resin so most of the resin might only be 15 or so years old. Can't remember exactly when that problem occured. Originally Posted by AndyC Just finding another valve may fit on the tanks but the internal gearing may be very different to determine gallons used in service, brining, backwashing as well as rate of flow. So you are saying a complete rebuilt Kinetico valve would not necessarily work on my unit using the same number disk I currently have? Wouldn't a water leak show up in our water bill with higher than normal usage? Isn't it likely after 20 years of continuous use with basically all original parts that something is now worn or broken rather than just some misadjustment? I will ask you the same question I just asked in the previous post: If I take apart the valve will it be obvious what part or parts need to be replaced, or does one have to be an expert in this area? Finally, have you ever considered building a web-site with all the info necessary for us DIY folks? It could have diagrams, photos, lists of steps for various processes. Perhaps a list of the most reputable Kinetico dealers around the country as reported by the readers. Yes, not all valves are identical and each is engineered to meet certain parameters and objectives. Water leakage may or may not show up in your water bill. in other words, when you use, say 9000 gallons in a given month, how could identify a give or take of a couple hundred? But that much may cause the softener to misread the service capacity. This would be true for all metered operated softeners. In fact some ROs are so wasteful, that softeners may need to compensate. And yes, after twenty years that can very well be the situation. I just wanted to suggest other...cheaper...methods of finding the answer first. In this business it is very easy for a technician to suggest a more expensive solution when he clearly sees a simplier, cheaper one that works. I was just considering that first. Will it be obvious to see parts that are worn or broken. Yes and no. Some subtle differences to the inexperienced eye can be invisible and others quite clear. Screens and o-rings/seals may appear to be correct but in fact may need to be changed. When we rebuild valves we just go through the whole thing and make it fresh...I mean, why take shortcuts when you have it apart. That's the difference with a qualified technician doing the work. It is a good valve and quite reliable. As far as building a web site with all those details...no, I never decided to go that route. I have helped individuals who were sincere in finding solutions. Andy Christensen, CWS Originally Posted by AndyC Yes, not all valves are identical and each is engineered to meet certain parameters and objectives. What if the valve is for the same model I have? BTW my units tanks have a diameter of about 7.5 inches and measures about 22 inches from floor to top of valve. I'm guessing this is a model 30 or it's predecessor. Would you rebuild a valve if I sent it to you? If so what would be the cost and how long would it take once it got there? Finding you was not particulary easy and your knowledge about these units would be invaluable to the internet community. A comprehensive web-site could potentially help many folks save some bucks when their Kinetico system is not working right. Lots of folks want answers now and are not willing to post back and forth on a forum to get answers - that does not mean they are not sincere in wanting to find solutions. I think you should at least think about the possibility of a web-site and all the potential good it could do. It seems to me that this water conditioning business has some of the same problems as the auto mechanic business. The average guy really never knows if the stuff a mechanic says needs replacing really does or not, and the info you have already provided in these posts is helping me to make a wiser decision on getting my unit back up and running. Don't sell yourself short! Thanks for all the time you have taken with me so far. Cliff aka lovetofixit Cliff Yes, it sounds like you have a K-30 model. This forum is not set up for nor allows private business transactions, so I can't help you in that respect. That would be a rule violation. One way to get banned from this forum is to advertise (either directly or subtly), conduct business or recruit customers; or behave badly toward other members. We have seen that happening the past so please understand if I don't offer to repair your unit or quote prices in the air of promoting my personal business. As for diagrams, exploded views of valves and other technical data, I have been able to share these with a couple of individuals through email attachments in the past. I will consider a web site, but not sure if I want to devote so much energy to the task. To locate a Kinetico dealer in your, or near-by, area: http://www.kinetico.com/Kinetico/EN/Residential/How+To+Buy/Find+a+Kinetico+Dealer/Find+a+Dealer.htm Hope this helped. Andy Christensen, CWS Sorry, I'm a newbie and not trying to break any forum rules. The only dealer I have heard from so far, gives a ballpark figure of $400-$500 to rebuild valve on site, but pushed for replacing whole system with a discounted new model because the resin, tanks, etc. could be bad. Turns out I have an obsolete model 45. Through more research I now have a trouble shooting plan, before pulling the unit apart and replacing the resin. It appears I should be able to pinpoint the problem fairly easily. I have a rebuilt replacement head lined up if I need it. Thanks one and all for your help. Will report back once the project is done. I decided to move ahead with resin replacement (about $85) and replacing the head, tubes, and screens. I got a nice rebuilt head and all new tubes and screens for a net of $70 (with exchange of my old head). Total about $30 more than the Kinetico folks wanted to come out and diagnose the problem. Turns out the main tank was out of resin because of cracked bottom screen. Was very thankful I had new resin on hand at the point of discovery. Just got everything all put back together and it appears everything is working normally. Will need to give the hot water heater time to recycle with soft water before claiming total victory, but so far am pleased with the result. Again I want to thank all those who helped along the way. The bottom line was that this was a job that could be tackled by the system owner without having to call in the expensive techs. Cliff I am instrested in your you replaced the resin in your Kinetico system. I have an old waterplant am told that I need a new one for $1000's of $. They have said the resin in depleted. Rookie Poster... Hope I'm doing this right... Thanking about buying a Kinetico Model 30 Water softener listed locally on ebay versus buying a lower quality big box softener... I have been in my house for 4 years and there's an old Culligan N8 installed but it was bypassed when I moved in and the previous owner said the resin tank was bad (or something like that)... After 4-5 years is this recoverable? How could I check? I called Culligan and all he wanted to do was sell me a new one talking about how expensive it would be to service the resin, and some other BS that seemed more techno babble then real facts... Others says Resin is cheap so maybe I should try firing up this old Culligan model? My preference is to buy this Kinetico locally if it's WORTH THE RISK.. Should I plan to put in new resin, anything else? Was bypassed 18 months ago. Seems like a few $100 gamble on this is better then a disposable softener from Home Depot... I'm thinking I follow the advice of others who posted to get water tested before installation What say you? FYI, Rockford, IL http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEBI:ITih=001 My trade is work as a Head Hunter so if I can return the favor somehow as far as Job search help... let me know. Got some good stuff I can share especially for Students going after that first job or those oldtimers shell shocked by having to take on a job search... Can't work miracles but I have some good tricks of the trade to offer... Originally Posted by srarfi Rookie Poster... Hope I'm doing this right... Starting a new thread to pose your question would be a good idea rather than hanging your post on an old thread. Just click the NEW POST button. I agree with Lurker, however, personally, I would spend a couple of grand on buying and rebuilding a Kinetico before I would spend a hundred on anything else I just bought a used Kinetico 60. I am getting all of my ducks in a row to install it. I do not have any installing instructions and am looking for some. The only question that I have is, does the backwash outlet 1/2 line coming off the head and the 1/2 overflow line on the brine tank need to be connected to a drain. If so can I put a tee inline and tie both to one actual drain? Originally Posted by AndyC Cliff Yes, it sounds like you have a K-30 model. This forum is not set up for nor allows private business transactions, so I can't help you in that respect. That would be a rule violation. One way to get banned from this forum is to advertise (either directly or subtly), conduct business or recruit customers; or behave badly toward other members. We have seen that happening the past so please understand if I don't offer to repair your unit or quote prices in the air of promoting my personal business. As for diagrams, exploded views of valves and other technical data, I have been able to share these with a couple of individuals through email attachments in the past. I will consider a web site, but not sure if I want to devote so much energy to the task. To locate a Kinetico dealer in your, or near-by, area: http://www.kinetico.com/Kinetico/EN/...d+a+Dealer.htm Hope this helped. Andy Christensen, CWS I have been seeing some spots on the shower doors and suspected the softner wasn't working. I put through some cycles and noticed it did not pull any brine from the tank. Any idea's? Your system is obviously not working properly. First thing I would check is to remove the tanks and heads to make sure your resin is still full. My problem turned out to be a cracked basket at the end of the tube which goes down into the tank which resulted in most of the resin being pumped down the drain. If the resin is still full, then you have a problem with your control head. Cliff
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